I'm trying to re-evaluate my rankings for Final Fantasies. It's hard to split hairs but I'm pretty sure Final Fantasy VIII is still #1 because it had a fun story. Or maybe it's because I was laughing at everyone that wasn't cheating in the game.

O yes I see now the draw system was horribly flawed in that it made enemy encounters last much longer than they should have if you were type of person to min-max your stats. It required a different type of grinding that was a little more active ... unless you cheated to speed things up.

What do you mean the devs didn't do anything different? You mean they were also cheaters that had full access to god mode in their games? Well yes of course. That's why many of them included cheat codes in their games.

O no, cheating is playing them for real. Duping and finding ways to alter dice rolls and RNG in your favor and giving yourself the best stats eliminates a lot of grind and reduces the game down to its more essential elements: the story, the characters, the music.

There's no need to go through another long drawn out progression system or to overcome character weaknesses (statistical weaknesses not personality traits) when you can take shortcuts.

I mean it looks like you're beating a lot of games every month and year. I think you could probably beat two or three times as many if you used simple exploits. Cut the grind, save some time, and make yourself some money.

Over at ddovault.com for example, the cheaters or dupers there are actually competing with the game publishers themselves for real money from the games playerbase or whales. Because the idiot game publishers and developers created an item (Otto Box) that gives you instant level 20 or instant level 30 (from 20) and charged $50 per box.

The goal of the stat maxing game in DDO Dungeons and Dragons Online is to get your character from level 1-20 or 20-30 over 150 times. Now you do the math.

A good player will take a day or two to reach level 20. And that's with non-stop breaks. So that's a minimum of 150 days and more realistically 1 or 2 years of playtime.

Or they can buy 150 boxes from the developer and pay $7500 and reduce the playtime down to a week or less of going through 150x30 level up menus.

Or they pay a significant discount to one of the dupers that mass duped the TRADEABLE item (and risk an account ban if they don't take proper precautions) and get the same amount of boxes for only $1400 or less depending on duper pricing.

So really you have at least three options, grind to win which takes significantly more time, pay to win which can be somewhat expensive, or cheat to win which is a little risky but saves time and costs a lot less if you do the cheats and exploits yourself or negotiate down the prices with the duped items supplier.

The developers and the dupers/gold sellers are both trying to make money and cash grab from players that want to get "power boost".

This of course has some real life analogues. Let's say car manufacturers that are trying to sell you the best looking or best performing cars, or weapons manufacturers that are selling you the most deadly or most effective weapons. There are cheaters and dupers in those systems as well that will also sell you virtually identical goods or counterfeit goods that are of varying quality. But what do you actually get out of buying the best cars or best weapons? Envious looks from your neighbors perhaps?

Build a house, buy a house, steal a house, get a free house for a great deal. Time, money, ingenuity. Well it is up to you which path you want to take and the risks you are willing to take.

For single player games the risks are near-zero, I wouldn't even get any flak for it unless I discussed the cheating in places like here

For online multiplayer games, you risk account, ip bans, and other persona-non-grata bans but that also depends how competent the game companies are at catching and punishing cheaters (most of them aren't, because as the cheaters say, when you ban a cheater, you are actually banning a customer that may still be a source of money and other customers)

For "real life" cheating, you risk falling into legal traps and punishments for "white collar crime". Hey that must be a racist term too. White slave owners certainly made a killing off the backs of blacks and other slaves when there were fewer legal consequences for their slave actions.

Then we go back to that question that you hinted at, which is why the game developers made the game so grindy or rpgs "unplayable" in the first place. Part of it is so that they could draw out the length of the game for less informed players and also create incentives to make in-game purchases/microtransactions to buy power and time convenience boosts. There is/was also a market for strategy guides, hint books, and phone tip 1-900 hotlines, and game cheating devices like the game genie. Rapid fire controllers, fancy mouses and keyboards with programmable macros, and purchaseable game bots and (map)hacks.

So of course, I'm not going to be arsed to play them "for real". Not when you know the numbers the RNG. For popular games like Final Fantasy, it's actually easier to cheat because the wikis are more detailed with statistics like the Steal % for rare items.

I'm definitely not going to input the steal command 100 types and wait for the combat animations to play out 97 times to get the normal item and 3 times for the rare items I actually want when I can just cheat the system and also get steam achievements for non-VAC games. Those steam achievements do look lovely on my steam profile after all.

I mean, the whole point of rare items was to increase certain stats, but when you cheat to increase your stats to maximum, they're kind of pointless. except for superbosses in Final Fantasy V that could kill you anyway even if you did cheat rig your HP

I guess there are some benefits to not cheating but most of them are imagined or illusory. Perhaps such people could be considered pure, untainted, innocent. But other words to describe them could be naive, inexperienced. A stubborn insistence to do things a certain way, the way the game designers intended? Even they know that some players will use cheats, faqs, because they can't fix all their bugs. The more games they make, the more opportunity for cheating.

I really don't understand your dark ages comment though because rpgs continue to be made. They're definitely not unplayable. Perhaps intolerable for certain types of players but they still sell well to certain audiences.

Again on the FF series. I guess you're saying that they designed the games for grind so if I wanted to avoid the grind entirely perhaps I should do the ultimate cheat and watch someone else's youtube playthrough instead with cutscenes only?

That can be a little too passive at times for me. I prefer some active exploration with some active cheating when the grind gets too "chorey". As for popularity, well yes, the games are popular and well known and since I finished a lot of the others already with cheats or no cheats, I definitely wanted to finish FFV (bear in mind I stopped about halfway with cheats 15 years ago). Now I'm probably done with it for good. Uninstalled, goes to the back of the head in "pleasant" memory lane.

"What do you mean the devs didn't do anything different?" I mean let's say you play a game don't cheat but you don't like it so you quit. But later you cheat so to make the game enjoyable to you. It's the exact same product as before but you're taking more steps to make it enjoyable, and in essence you're helping out the devs even though they didn't deserve it. If anything they ought to have added those features for you to begin with.

"Giving yourself the best stats eliminates a lot of grind and reduces the game down to its more essential elements: the story, the characters, the music."
Shame the developers couldn't see it the same way. Isn't this their one freaking job: to make games fun? We all need to be on the same page here and cheating just gets in the way of that. It's a short term solution, to salvage that one game as opposed to the concept of videogames in general. Latter is more important imo.

"mean it looks like you're beating a lot of games every month and year. I think you could probably beat two or three times as many if you used simple exploits."
I guarantee you that if I did that I wouldn't actually be beating them.
If a dev releases a game with 100 hour pointless grind then if anything it's downright egregious to claim you beat it because it makes it SOUND as though you went through the grind for real and therefore normalizing it and increasing the amount of grind that is perceived as acceptable. And as for anyone else who plays that particular game,they may be more encouraged to put up with the grind seeing as you led them to believe that you went through it just fine.
Words are supposed to mean something btw. If a game is 1000 hours and I say I beat it, it means I went through that 1000 hours. Nothing says I have to though. I can always try to beat a different game if the game I'm currently playing isn't enjoyable. Because if it isn't enjoyable then in a way I would rather that I didn't beat it, and if I*don't* want to beat a game then why would I implement the use of cheating to make it as though I did?

"For "real life" cheating, you risk falling into legal traps "
Legality and morality are two totally different things. Not every single topic comes down to "well can I get away with it". There is way more to it than that.
You also bring up MMOs a lot but that's a whole different subject from traditional single player games which is what I'm mainly referring to.
Single player, competitive, and MMO are like three separate groups of gaming and I'd personally apply separate rules for each of them.
As you say, real economy is involved with MMOs and money can be made, so in a way MMOs can be arguably be treated as real life and not a game. It really depends on the context of the debate being had.
You're not making money by playing FF8 though. It's hard to see what someone would gain from cheating in it other than poseuring, self deception, or to be able to superficially project that game's culture onto onself.

"I'm definitely not going to input the steal command 100 types and wait for the combat animations to play out 97 times to get the normal item and 3 times for the rare items"
Well first of all you would obviously not know about the rare item until you've stolen one already. But apparently you want multiples. Well presumably in that case your pattern recognition would kick in and realise what items are more likely to result from stealing. You may decide that the rare item was a fluke and decide accordingly. (move on with the 1x rare or double down and keep stealing) It's a basic example of a value judgment. Is the item you want worth the hundreds of extra steals you'd have to go through to get it? A lot of value judgments are made during single player games especially in RPGs and therefore it is inextricably linked to the craft of game design.

"I really don't understand your dark ages comment though because rpgs continue to be made. They're definitely not unplayable."
Can we agree that if someone cheats in a particular game, then by his or her own admission that particular game is unplayable according to them.

Games are supposed to be fun not stressful, so imagine releasing a game that created a demand for hacks to make said game more fun / less stressful!

Oh and another thing. When you point out I could beat more games by exploiting. Why stop there? Why don't I watch YouTube playthroughs instead. Of just straight up lie and claim to beat various games without playing them at all. Seriously, why don't I do that? If the objective is, as you implied, simply to post as many games in this thread as possible. You probably can think of a good reason or two why that would be silly in which case you already begun to see my point of view. Beating doesn't matter, only playing does, beating is merely a consequence of playing. If beating came about a different way then it loses all meaning.

"And if you go that far, maybe people that read the manual or go through in-game tutorials are also cheaters."
Having to read the manual to learn how to do something is kind of shit since it's almost like reading a player's guide in a way, but at least it was included with the game, it didn't come from a third party. Therefore, not cheating.
Bringing up tutorials was so profoundly broken. The entire game is a tutorial. The point of crafting a single player experience is to have the player learn more about the mechanics, barring things like experiencing the story and the like which serve as framework.
That's why better games tend to introduce powerups and enemies one at a time and then crank things up as players become familiar with them.
It's why cheating is broken because it implies the game failed at this very basic goal. (that or the player didn't even give the game a chance, Something that becomes a likely occurrence if you allow yourself to cheat)

"Because tips and full-game walkthroughs are essentially extended manuals"
Games have in game hints, tutorial, dialogues, etc. Players shouldn't have to read manuals ever. Manuals are ineffective anyway since they require memorization.

OT: Mario Kart 7
But I've only just started playing.. I'll keep playing and see what else I unlock.

I'm starting to get dejavu with this strategy guide discussion it's as if I had it with you or someone else years and years ago already

the whole point is to encourage you to cheat more and more woohoo!

like how lately in my DDO guild I've been posting this video series on YouTube fast leveling 1 to 20 in 14 hours.

I always get the funniest comments like "no thanks I'll take my time" or "14 hours I don't think I can do that"

but the point is it's been done and 14 hours becomes a rough standard for speed of character progression.

o sure you'll spoil the game and miss a lot of extras like NPC dialogues if you watch the video series but you could learn a lot of useful tips as well.

you can't seriously believe that all non first party tips are cheating. that's almost like saying you never drive above the speed limit even the car manufacturers put speed indicators on the car that go well past speed limits.

ok we're pulling too many threads here but you really should soften what appears to be a heavy anti-cheating stance.

there's no reason for you not to cheat, and not to make use of information that is readily available about this or that game.

it's all a part of research. and yes i know you do research games or else you wouldn't be posting here or contributing to wikis, making game recommendations, etc.

you can't expect people to live in anti-cheat bubbles. you might be able to impose some limitations on yourself personally but I don't see the point. you buy and/or download the game because you found out about it, you play it, and then you move on to the next game.

O I see if you do less research (including learning and implementing cheats and walkthroughs) on a game, you might have more time to play the game itself because your research time is less. But overall time spent on a game will vary depending on the speed of playthrough with or without research. Then there is stuff like post game and in game commentary and analysis that all adds up to the amount of time you spent per game.

Meh if it works for you, there's no need for adjustment to your research to playtime ratio. And as you hinted, playing the games themselves is research too because you figure out the game as you go along. and yes, you have shared your research with others. It might not be in heavy detail as with others but you do make commentary.

When someone writes a guide or posts a video, they are sharing more of their game research. They might or might not expect to get paid for their research in the form of advertising revenue or booklet sales.

I suppose your approach might be a sort of do your own research (as much as possible) philosophy. It's fine but again that forces you to go through the most mundane actions like random encounters. And like Klem hinted at, time travels in Animal Farm speed up the farming process. yes, we might miss the intricate details of bacteria growing in a petri dish that are only observable with minute slices of time and might be super important for stuff like Covid-19 research but no really, in most cases it's not that important.

You say Collectors Editions are a scam but how would you know that unless you were scammed or were a scammer yourself. I don't see them as scams, they're just a part of business. Selling extras to people that can afford or that want the extras. Like CBS all access they have a monthly plans an annuals plans with or without ads. you pay more for the plan without ads but you actually might miss some neat advertising for another show that could interest you.

ok back to cheating, just do it! why get the star in super mario bros when you can have perma-invincibility instead via hacks and use god-mode like a developer. eliminate and reduce the challenge.

Yes, without cheats, you get a more accurate measurement of the challenge and difficulty level of a game. Without guides and people telling or showing you what to do or how to do it, you're on your own. But why have teachers or professors at all then? Why is it ok for you to cheat at cooking but not for video games?

"It's fine but again that forces you to go through the most mundane actions like random encounters."
No game should have random encounters period. I avoid those games totally. The last game I gave a chance was Pokemon Moon, and I did beat it but it still felt desperate and the game left a lukewarm overall impression on me despite having loved the game at certain points during the course of my playthrough.
Random encounters is like you're surrounded by a cloud of mosquitoes that doesn't go away no matter how many you swat down. It adds a persistent vague unpleasantness and annoyance and on top of that an element of unrealism to any game that has them and all those things taken together personally pull me out of the experience. And that's at best. Often it makes a game completely unplayable. I once tried FF1 (PSP version) using an emulator, I think I lasted about 6 hours. After a certain point I was way overleveled and there was one cave I was killing each enemy in one hit each and ending battles in about 3 seconds so it seemed very pointless that the battles kept coming just to waste my time. They were relentless too. In one part of the cave I was getting an encounter with LITERALLY every step. (that area was probably intentionally programmed that way.. another reason why I despise random encounters, I notice some games that sneak in non-random encounters disguised as random encounters and I find that incredibly cheap not to mention deceitful.)
I avoided putting random encounters in my RPG maker game also. When I say a game should not have x under any circumstance, I really mean it. Laziness is a motherfucker but still... gotta have standards ffs.

"Yes, without cheats, you get a more accurate measurement of the challenge and difficulty level of a game."
Which is way, way more important than whatever the cheating would have gotten you.
The funny thing about cheating is... you cannot have both. You either get the accurate experience, or the or the extra armor. Choosing the latter seems INCREDIBLY petty and even infantile almost. (not to mention by choosing the former you can still actually have the armor as well every now and then, how about that. Throw in the sense of reward that comes with acquiring it on your own. It's like a 2 for 1 special.)

"But why have teachers or professors at all then?"
The point of having teachers is to learn. By cheating in a game you're not learning anything. As stated above, you've sacrificed that to get the pimped out sword. It comes down to how you define "knowledge" and "research". (You could very well say that there is no point in watching any movie since anyone can just go online and find out how it ends.) Rather than being fixated on the difference between the armor you currently have equipped and the marginally better armor you feel you'd need to cheat in order to acquire, would you prefer to think about how the game handles things like this compared to a previous game you have played and how it impacts the overall experience. not that THAT fucking matters.

"I mean you're watching how to make this or that dish videos. Isn't that kind of like cheating?"
No, you are learning a skill. And you are creating something. Neither is true of cheating.
Your analogy makes sense when creating a mod or hack for a game. You are defying the original creator's intention, but it's not the same as cheating since you're actually creating a thing. As in something that can be shared, and experienced by others.
Read a list of things a mod changes and it's plain to see that a modder literally has something to say about how he thinks a game should be designed. And he had the programming skill to actually do it. (Unless he didn't have that skill starting out and had to learn it-even better, he modded not only the game but himself too. Good on him!!)
Whereas someone who plays the retail original game and looks up a guide but doesn't actually do anything to make the game itself better has achieved nothing and is kind of leeching off the rest of the community.

I mean you're watching how to make this or that dish videos. Isn't that kind of like cheating?

What? lol no. then any form of knowledge transfer would be cheating. Even if someone told you how to do something does not mean you don't have to put in any thinking or effort. If that were true everyone watching tutorials would be an expert at any field they watch. Still people suck as much as before because people don't actually put the lessons into practice and via video it's even harder to learn because the "teacher" does not answer questions.

What if you altered a recipe? Some chefs (and foodies/consumers) seem to find that offensive depending on whose recipe it was.

I have never met any cook or chef who takes offence at that. Cooking is all about experiment it would make no sense to be offended at that. Most good cooks even say you can alter the recipe to your liking. Even if they were offended, lol who cares? They don't see what you do in the privacy of your own kitchen.

What if I did a cat drawing tutorial and got mad at people who drew the cat in a slightly different way then I explained and I got all offended? That would be ridiculous. Draw a cat with 4 cocks for all I care or no cat at all but just cocks. Just make something damn it!

Wait... Am I being delusional? I clearly remember a video where They told me the monsters were visible on the map in the switch version and I even saw the monsters on the map..... This is some Mandela shit.

Did I just dream it or somthing? How retarded lol.

Reminds me I still have to save Yuna from that crazy blue haired pedo.